Poke'mon Butt/Wipe & Crap/Brown *Rant

Stanley RichardsAnd I think people play the game not for the story, but rather just for the fun of raising pokemon, training them and such. A story is quite meaningless as it may give us that "Finish one story in a town, move on to the next" and not have any free-exploration until you beat the game.

Oh man, this guy is right on the money.

markswanReading "change for the sake of change" over and over is driving me nuts.

Typing it makes my fingers hurt.

markswanMaking lots of money despite making no effort to improve the franchise benefits the developer and publisher, not the gamers who buy it. If GAMEFREAK hadn't included the breeding, ability to hold items, shiny Poke'mon and all the other stuff that they added to the franchise in Gold and Silver; people would still have bought it. If it had just been the same as Red and Blue but with a different map and a few different Poke'mon; people would still have bought it, it would still have sold millions. It's reasonably for you to dispute the suggested changes to the future instalments, but saying that something that sells well must be good would make The Phantom Menace one of the greatest films of all time. It's possible to have too much of a good thing; if every new Poke'mon game was built to fit into the exact same template, I feel that it wouldn't be long until everyone except the die-hards abandoned it completely for the next fad.

I'm not saying that there's no reason to change the games because existing financial ideas are promising, I'm saying that plenty of games HAVE changed the core mechanics of their games and completely ruined the franchise. It's plenty successful now, and I think the number of new features introduced in each new generation whilst keeping the same basic gameplay premise is as close to perfect as possible. There's just enough to keep interest up without requiring "OH WOO REAL TIME DODGING STYLUS CONTROLS NIGGA" bullshit. Keep that shit to the spinoffs, the main series is simple and effective as it is without any of these lolhueg changes that could sink the entier franchise.

markswanTo be honest, I don't see much of a difference in complexity between the stories of any generation. In Red and Blue for example; I thought that the side story about Team Rocket murdering cubone's mother and then her spirit haunting that tower was pretty deep for a kid's game. On an unrelated note, when I first played through Red, when I was a kid, I didn't know you needed the scope thing to get past the ghost in the tower; I used a Poke'doll instead. I didn't realise until my fourth play through what the "proper" way to proceed was. :)

The little side stories in RBY and GSC were actually really cool. There was a bit of life in those, like you'd arrived just in time to thwart these nefarious deeds. Having a huge, overarching story doesn't really click as much with me, although I understand some people may be different and that this might just be my nostalgia goggles talking.

markswanLol, egotastic. Wow, I hope that the shame caused by disapproval from "the people that matter" doesn't lead to anyone in this thread crying themselves to sleep at night :)

Who am I without my ego? But in all seriousness, blatant condescension is nothing but irritating. It never helps a point. I try to avoid it unless I'm fucking with someone.

UsoppuWhy would adding a decent story restrict anything?, the game is still linear even without it because of its layout.Another thing I wouldn't mind, is a difficulty setting at the beginning. Which would effect pokemon levels, money gained, battle mode ('set' mode would be forced in the hardest) etc.
These ideas can only be seen as beneficial, surely. They don't screw with what's already there.

i think a difficulty level alone without all those perks would be fine... it might even out the money situation if you had to actually use potions and stuff for other things besides the elite four and you wouldnt have to sit through 20+ tail whips..etc

Stanley RichardsAnd I think people play the game not for the story, but rather just for the fun of raising pokemon, training them and such. A story is quite meaningless as it may give us that "Finish one story in a town, move on to the next" and not have any free-exploration until you beat the game.

i played it for the story too.. id have to admit though it wasn't the only reason why, but i got into it for R/B/Y and G/S/C... even R/S/E had an okay story to it and the story helps to give a good change from battling all the time but thats just my opinion

Stanley RichardsIf thats the case, WiFi battles would be quite unbalanced. And the possibility of breaking the games from the start is really high.

I can't see how it would affect WiFi (I'm only referring to the main game, usual rules would apply online).
I only meant trainers levels, or if not that, an improved AI. It would be nice to allow extra difficulty to those who'd want it, no?

And I think people play the game not for the story, but rather just for the fun of raising pokemon, training them and such. A story is quite meaningless as it may give us that "Finish one story in a town, move on to the next" and not have any free-exploration until you beat the game.

Sure, but I think it could add some drive though. You say it may stop progression in certain towns... isn't it already like that, you can't progress unless you have beaten the gyms, found certain HM etc. I don't think adding more story would be quite so bad.As for the original topic, you should really give the game a chance before completely slating it. Info on the game is still pretty limited.

I meant it like this; We all know and love the non-linear fashion of Final Fantasy, and it works. What if, you took away that free-roaming adventure, add a total linear path of the game? Yes, it may make the story better, but you lose that feel of an RPG... Which I believe all RPGs must have some sort of free-roaming.

Usoppu · #83As for the original topic, you should really give the game a chance before completely slating it. Info on the game is still pretty limited.

ive been ranting about the whole series not just the new games that are coming out

Replying to #84

just because a game has more story doesnt make it "linear" they could add 20 hours more worth of story and the game wouldnt be linear since there's always side quests or the beauty contests, bug catching contest, etc... you should play grandia 3 and then you would know that adding more story doesnt make the game linear.. its when the ONLY thing you can do in the entire game is progress the story thats what makes a game linear not the fact that the game has a story

I never said a good story makes it linear. I'm saying that a good story will not allow as much free-roaming until the end of the game. Take FF Crisis Core for instance. You can't go back to the areas you've been (at least, the main map areas) until a certain amount of time. Also like Final Fantasy XIII, The once free-roaming game has turned into a really linear RPG. Pokemon is different. The story in the original anime (Barely any story apart from gym-poke league) is like, straight forward, go to one town, save people, go to the next town, save more people, and repeated. And what kind of crazy story can you come up with pokemon? It's always been the Catchpokemon, Gym, E4 and champion, battle tower*newer games*. Team ____ trying to take over the world, and such? That's really quite ludicrous to change having the said story to a "10 year old boy saves the world from the Team underscore". I'd think it's best just to leave story to the spin-off games.

To start: No, I did not read the whole thread. Four pages is not worth quoting out of. Instead, I'll just give my own reasons for hating what Pokemon has become below. If the points have already been argued, wonderful, if not, even better.My issues with Pokemon:- The Pokemon suck nowKanto, great, original, new, hard to go wrong. Johto, okay, not awful, could be better. Hoenn, now it is just getting a little ridiculous, how many psychic bug types are there now? Whatever the newest region is, the Pokemon just suck. Hard. Black and White so far are finally showing that the creators are out of new ideas. Maybe it is time to switch up the story in a way that doesn't require the creation of hundreds of new Pokemon every couple of years.- The story is oldFight evil team that wants to steal Pokemon, alter land, alter space and time, etc., fight eight gyms, go through victory road and fight elite four. Then you might have something afterward, you might not depending on which game you bought (which sucks, the third version of each set of games should be the only version). I ended up dropping Soul Silver after the third gym or so because of the fact that I've fought eight gyms at least 25 times by now (my record for beating Sapphire is about 10 hours), and the thought of grinding for dozens of levels for each Pokemon after realizing I wasn't strong enough at the end of the game for the hundredth time even after the eight gym was easy was enough to drive me to cut myself if I kept going. Thus, Soul Silver will remain unbeaten, probably forever.After playing Blue, Yellow, Gold, Crystal, Fire Red, Leaf Green, Sapphire, Ruby, Emerald, Pearl, Diamond, and Platinum, I just can't handle playing the same story anymore.- The combat system is as old as the storyThe combat system was originally new and innovative, not so much 20 years after its creation. It is too repetitive and not involving enough. You click attack, pick an attack, watch your Pokemon basically win 90% of the time. It would be great if you had some more involvement in some way. I'm not sure how since the Mystery Dungeon battle system bored me to tears, but it needs a serious revamp from people who know how to get it done.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The spin off games do nothing to help really. I enjoyed the concept of the Gamecube games, but sadly it was basically the same thing again with an added step and a changed story. The story was great, it was a wonderful change from the normal portable story. If they could incorporate something like that into a portable game, I think they could fix the hatred of the same old linear story. Sadly though, you are still fighting an evil team that wants to use Pokemon for their own purpose, it is just that it basically takes up the whole game. Not too horribly original, but still better in terms of story. Fighting system was identical, so no difference there.Pokemon is an old formula that even someone like me is having troubles enjoying anymore. For anybody that tries to compare it to how FF is; Square Enix has attempted to create a more involving battle system for the exact reason why Pokemon is getting old. Turn based battling where you do nothing but but hit the attack button and watch it unfold is getting old and almost needs to completely die at this point. FFXII was a complete flop, but it couldn't help that, as Square Enix was trying to utilize a new system to involve players more to keep old fans interested while pulling new fans in.Pokemon needs to experiment. It may cost Nintendo a set of games for experimentation to see if people like a new system, but it needs to be done. Even all the people who say "POKEMON SHOULD NEVER CHANGE, IT IS PERFECT! ♥♥♥♥" will get bored of it. You just have a higher tolerance for the same thing then other people.And done.

"The pokemon suck now"Agreed. Very much. They look more like animals now."The story is old"I find the story alright. As I said, I'd rather be a normal teenager going around catching Pokemon, wanting to be the best Pokemon Trainer ever then a teenager going around saving the world. That's not what Pokemon is about...
Ever since the original Red and Blue, the story on the back of the box already flats out says the story."The combat system is as old as the story"I don't really think theres a need for changing the combat style. It still works. I wouldn't see Pokemon any other way."The extra text at the bottom"I always thought the "fighting an evil team that wants to use Pokemon for their own evil purpose" a side-story. As I said, the main "story" is just going around trying to be the best Pokemon master.
I don't think the people should risk losing many sales just to experiment with new concepts. They COULD try to make another Spin-off, But I just don't see that happening. Look what happened with the PSP Go. It's hated by many and loved by quite alot.

Luckytrouble, I agree with your main point about story, but I think the gameplay and combat system itself which keeps the game addictive/fun, remove that and it may as well be a spin-off.I didn't like the gamecube games. It was cool to change the story, but they kept the battle system only and stripped being able to catch pokemon and a lot of the exploration, which made it suck.

Stanley Richards · #86I never said a good story makes it linear. I'm saying that a good story will not allow as much free-roaming until the end of the game. Take FF Crisis Core for instance. You can't go back to the areas you've been (at least, the main map areas) until a certain amount of time. Also like Final Fantasy XIII, The once free-roaming game has turned into a really linear RPG. Pokemon is different. The story in the original anime (Barely any story apart from gym-poke league) is like, straight forward, go to one town, save people, go to the next town, save more people, and repeated. And what kind of crazy story can you come up with pokemon? It's always been the Catchpokemon, Gym, E4 and champion, battle tower*newer games*. Team ____ trying to take over the world, and such? That's really quite ludicrous to change having the said story to a "10 year old boy saves the world from the Team underscore". I'd think it's best just to leave story to the spin-off games.

Wow, you really don't like idea of improved story do you.
In the end all I can really say is, seeing how the core mechanics have already been near perfected, I see no harm in now putting some focus on some of its weaker areas, one of which being story, it needn't be as crappy as you make it seem. Forget the anime, I wish they were in no way associated.

the factor that determines whether the new pair of pokemon games are good or not is one thing:innovation. i think everybody here will agree if i say that they need something new in those games. problem is, nintendo are pretty much out of ideas to cram into that small cartridge.

Stanley Richards · #88I always thought the "fighting an evil team that wants to use Pokemon for their own evil purpose" a side-story. As I said, the main "story" is just going around trying to be the best Pokemon master.

i can see what you mean by that, but i didnt get that from any of the previous posts you madeand LuckyTrouble77 i couldnt agree more with your post.. bravo! you seemed to type it out right out of my brain (which even i have a hard time doing) :D

You know what would make Pokemon more exciting... Mugen Style gameplay (of course this would remove the 4 move limit to be replaced by combo hits)!!! and Instead of the Elite four Pokemon league, we should have a tournament style Pkmn league... where we battle trainers in a ladder style fashion similar to that of the show.Crappy ideas...
-Pokemon dash mini-game
-Real time events such as pokemons appearing on a specific time and date
-training facility to remove the need of level grinding

pokemon contest: idiotic
pokeathlon: stupid
real time events: kinda pushythey need more innovation, and CHANGE THE GODDAMN BATTLE ANIMATION ALREADY!!!it looks the same as the GB version!! BORING!!!

Replying to #93

I liked the old RSE Pokemon contests (fuck Gen 4 Super Contests, that shit is terrible), the Pokeathlon is a fun distraction, and basing stuff off times is a pretty sweet deal. Also, the battle system has improved a lot, both graphically and mechanically. I don't see what your problem is here tbh.Basically all I've seen in this thread regarding the battle system is "it's old and we're now bored of it, change it". This just strikes me as hideously wrong. Why should it have to change if it works so well? You're so wrapped up in "CHANGE" that you fail to consider the number of people who actually like turn-based systems, as well as the success of it. Pokemon is turn-based battles - you mess with that, you're breaking one of the fundamentals of the franchise.I notice a lot of the issues are based on how repetitive the system is. I've been playing Pokemon competitively for a few years now, and I have to say, I just don't give a shit anymore since the focus comes off the battles and onto outplaying your very human opponent. To be fair, I realise that this isn't possible for many people, but I'm of the opinion that the fact that it can be a time-consuming process when battling, mixed with the regular RPG grinding elements, tend to make the game quite repetitive, a problem shared by a lot of RPGs that just aren't fast enough to deal with the wants of people who "NEED STUFF HAPPENING NOW". I do hope they streamline the battle system and make it a bit faster and more efficient, but I don't ever want the turn-based system to be scrapped for real-time responses and "dodging" and other shit I've seen brought up. If you don't have the patience to handle even if it is made a bit faster, than DEAL WITH IT. Don't play. Games don't need to be a quick-twitch clusterfuck of lights and sounds and button presses; some of us like the old school where you have time to plan.

Usoppu · #89Wow, you really don't like idea of improved story do you.
In the end all I can really say is, seeing how the core mechanics have already been near perfected, I see no harm in now putting some focus on some of its weaker areas, one of which being story, it needn't be as crappy as you make it seem.

You're making it seem like there's some way that the story could be improved without shitting up the game. It's not so much hating on "improved story" as you said. It's more about being wary of the impact a more... blatant story will have on the gameplay. But I'm sure you already have some ideas, how about writing them down and sharing them with us?

raaat · #92You know what would make Pokemon more exciting... Mugen Style gameplay (of course this would remove the 4 move limit to be replaced by combo hits)!!! and Instead of the Elite four Pokemon league, we should have a tournament style Pkmn league... where we battle trainers in a ladder style fashion similar to that of the show.Crappy ideas...
-Pokemon dash mini-game
-Real time events such as pokemons appearing on a specific time and date
-training facility to remove the need of level grinding

Ekk, that'd be too much for me, fighting games are too fast for me :(I thought about my ideas that I said here, I guess ow that I think about them, they'd (as Suis said) break pokemon, I'm not gonna go into it but...I guess my ideas would be better off as a spin off...No idea if it'd work, but maybe the hyper kids who like fast action would like before acing it, they make the ai in pokemon rather...basic at best.In regards to story changes as I seen above, what can we do?Pokemon collosum tried hard, it brought a darker tone sure, but still had too much of a kiddy sense...then I realised that while the mechanics can be quite advanced and technical, the story is best suited for those who just understood speech, as it doesn't matter at all.We can't really avoid the whole "oh choose your first pokemon, have the stupid bad guy group, and have a merry old time" thing, sure rpg's are known for their great stories, but pokemon isn't one of those.Easy to learn, and the story if for those who those little kiddies to be brought into it more, yet challenging to master, which hardcores (like Suis/and me before I stopped caring so much) can just ignore the story because we'd be striving for human opponents.I still respect pokemon for what it is now, I guess I wanted something really new from it, but the game is already perfected and can't progress like toher games...Game evolutions are a slow process, and big changes can break them, games like super mario 64 were destined fro greatness because they used the same platform but only added another "side" to it, if my idea of real time combat was used in the main pokemon games, it'd be cool but the main fan base would be divided and could be dangerous for the profit of the series.Another example is resident evil 4, wow meant alot MORE people would play, but it began to divide the fan base, re5 further messed with the fans, I loved it but only because my attention span is admittedly short and the in your face gameplay works best for me (Plus while it's more action focused, the game STILL has the roots of the former, just a different camera set up :P ).If we changed the cries of the pokemon, unless it was like the tv show(embarrassing but effective) we wouldn't recognize them, if we changed the animations, we'd eliminate the need for the link up to a console (and thus nintendo would loose money)...though having the pokemon moving around more fluidly while your controlling them (instead of bobbing up and down when your controlling them) could be interesting.I hate to say it, But Suis is right about many points :([me=hYpNoS]sat down and thought about this post and spent 25 mins trying to get it right[/me]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/989552-pokemon-black/55013947Some counterarguments.

raaat · #92You know what would make Pokemon more exciting... Mugen Style gameplay (of course this would remove the 4 move limit to be replaced by combo hits)!!! and Instead of the Elite four Pokemon league, we should have a tournament style Pkmn league... where we battle trainers in a ladder style fashion similar to that of the show.Crappy ideas...
-Pokemon dash mini-game
-Real time events such as pokemons appearing on a specific time and date
-training facility to remove the need of level grinding

someone made a pokemon fighting game

SuiseisekiSo basically, you want Pokemon to change to suit you, with retarded half-baked ideas on functionality, simply because you have the attention span of a fucking chipmunk? A game doesn't need to change its near-perfect core mechanics just to appease some kiddies jacked up on too much Halo and CoD. I don't give a fuck if you don't like turn-based setups - the system is closer to flawless than ever before. Here's an idea, idiot: if you don't like Pokemon, don't fucking play it anymore. Don't shit up my night by writing terrible "rants" that amount to childish bitching about the fact your nostalgia goggles have finally worn off. Pokemon is a solid game. It's been improved every single generation. Can't handle that it's not the same game that you played on the GB?TOO FUCKING BAD.YES I MAD

QFT.Pokemon has quite a winning formula on its hands. Not too hard to learn, yet extremely difficult to master (try going online and playing guys from Japan, they will kick your ass). It'd be a shame if it DOES evolve into some sort of action fest semi-RPG that we clearly have too much of these days.

Replying to #98

Pfft, the Japanese are smalltime. I hate to say it, but Smogon literally has some of the best players in the world.And I agree with this. It's a working formula mixed with a consistently high amount of polish. Someone on that gamefaqs link said they've mastered the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule, and I wholeheartedly agree that they've consistently made improvements to turn the game into what they have intended it to be: an excellent strategic turn-based RPG with a massive and entertaining exploration and collection setup that is plenty of fun.Honestly, if you're not finding Pokemon fun, don't play it. Seriously. Video games are for enjoyment. It's why I don't play Halo or TF2 or CoD or whatever, because I don't enjoy them. Find another game and stop complaining.

Suiseiseki · #94You're making it seem like there's some way that the story could be improved without shitting up the game. It's not so much hating on "improved story" as you said. It's more about being wary of the impact a more... blatant story will have on the gameplay. But I'm sure you already have some ideas, how about writing them down and sharing them with us?

Exactly what I was thinking...