Nintendo 3DS future hacking, and ROMulation question

Stanley RichardsIs it even confirmed that the 3DS will be entirely digital media?

No, we're just speculating. Maybe we'll find out at E3.

tehuber1337The key phrase there is "make more money". There are a number of reasons why implementing resale countermeasures aren't likely to make Nintendo more money.

And there are a number of reasons why it would. It's possible that Nintendo wouldn't be gaining money from people whom would be buying less expensive second-hand games (if those consumers had the option to); because those people would just not buy games that they see as too expensive. But if the cost of downloadable games were to be brought down a little (which could be possible without developers, publishers and Nintendo losing a lot of money due to the fact that they'd be saving on packaging and assembly), then the people whom would normally be buying second-hand may be able to afford the games (and wouldn't have a choice otherwise anyhow, given that games could not be resold).

I merely said that having downloadable games was a "major contributing factor". I don't know what problems you say it inherited, but I hope you're not saying the PSP was lifeless out of comparison to the DS, as that's setting the bar too high by any measure. Its recent game library has big titles such as the new Metal Gear Solid. If the Go's situation was worse in that respect, you can thank third-party publishers for not supporting such a content-delivery platform.

No, I wasn't intending to compare it to the DS. The PSP Go inherited the lethargic game releases, half-hearted media-capabilities and Web browsing and poor controls of the previous PSPs. It also has its own problems (a price tag that is too high, very few decent games on the horizon, the fact that it can't play UMDs and isn't compatible with some hardware made for previous models, the fact that holding it will cripple your damn hands, the screen was smaller, it still didn't have a second analogue nub).IMAO, the PSP is pretty much the Wii of handhelds as far as developer support and new releases go. Although, the Wii has more decent games due for release in the near future; so maybe the PSP is worse in that respect.

The 3DS discussion was based on the assertion of it being download-only (quote: "get rid of cartridges"). I don't care enough to keep up with related news, so whether or not it's backwards compatible has no bearing on me.

Good for you, but it does have some bearing on this discussion.

As for the iPod family, that's an entirely different story.

True, but I can't see any reason why Nintendo wouldn't want to take the plunge with the sort of games and applications available for the Ipod/Iphone (they're already dipping their toes in that water with DSIWare). So long as all the releases for the new DS aren't just novelty tat, so long as there are decent quality games available; I'll be happy.

When IS E3 again? I forgot.

Replying to #82

15th to the 17th of this month. There are rumours that the PSP2 will be revealed as well as the 3DS. I'm looking forward to it :)

Replying to #83

Definitely 3DS, but PSP2??

Replying to #84

Christ, that was a fast reply! You stoked boy?!
Yeah, but it isn't certain; just a rumour. We'll just have to wait and see.
IMMA STOKED TOO

markswan · #81And there are a number of reasons why it would. It's possible that Nintendo wouldn't be gaining money from people whom would be buying less expensive second-hand games (if those consumers had the option to); because those people would just not buy games that they see as too expensive. But if the cost of downloadable games were to be brought down a little (which could be possible without developers, publishers and Nintendo losing a lot of money due to the fact that they'd be saving on packaging and assembly), then the people whom would normally be buying second-hand may be able to afford the games (and wouldn't have a choice otherwise anyhow, given that games could not be resold).

It's also possible that banishing physical media would damage corporate relations with publishers, which is not a wise thing to do unless the next Nintendo home console also moves to a similar system. Third party developers would also be reluctant, if not unwilling, to hedge their bets on such a drastic change. Not being able to resell games also means that a customer's initial purchase is a bigger investment, which may disincline them to buying in the first place.Furthermore, the feasibility of providing downloadable games is also a significant issue. Nintendo would have to implement the infrastructure, which in itself would be terribly expensive if done properly. There are also people with subpar internet connections, whether in terms of speed or limit. I still buy physical copies of Steam games so I don't have to download as much.Additionally, if a download-only system was implemented without regard to piracy, which is a far bigger issue than resale, the end result would be net financial loss.

markswan · #81Good for you, but it does have some bearing on this discussion.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that the discussion was based on the assertion that the 3DS would be download-only. Or are you distinguishing between "this" and "that" discussion? I still don't see what difference it makes, as we're still speaking hypothetically anyway.

markswan · #81True, but I can't see any reason why Nintendo wouldn't want to take the plunge with the sort of games and applications available for the Ipod/Iphone (they're already dipping their toes in that water with DSIWare). So long as all the releases for the new DS aren't just novelty tat, so long as there are decent quality games available; I'll be happy.

Yes, they've already got DSiWare. However, the iPod app market is extraordinarily different to the Nintendo Shop or whatever it's called; not only does it allow for user-made applications, but it caters to people who want a highly customisable all-in-one device to perform simple, convenient tasks. The fact that many apps are free and the others can be purchased with money rather than otherwise non-redeemable points is another bonus.The DSi, as a dedicated gaming platform (as its other features are so lackluster as to not warrant mention), simply cannot compare to the potential for ubiquity that the iPod family possesses.

PSP2? I never heard about that until now..... I am just planning on buying a PSP in order to play Birth By Sleep.

tehuber1337 · #86It's also possible that banishing physical media would damage corporate relations with publishers, which is not a wise thing to do unless the next Nintendo home console also moves to a similar system.

Are you saying that developers not having to rely on publishers for packaging would cause them (the publishers) to become partially redundant? They wouldn't need to foot the bill for packaging, assembly and shipping, but developers would still need money for marketing, dev kits etc (and possibly for all, or part, of the development cycle). Not having to pay for packaging etc may actually benefit the publisher. It would certainly benefit independent developers and in-house studios.

tehuber1337 · #86Third party developers would also be reluctant, if not unwilling, to hedge their bets on such a drastic change. Not being able to resell games also means that a customer's initial purchase is a bigger investment, which may disincline them to buying in the first place.

Valve's Steam has done very well with downloadable games, I don't see why Nintendo couldn't be just as successful. Third party developers would have the choice of adapting or losing out on profits that could be made. It's risk versus reward.

tehuber1337 · #86Furthermore, the feasibility of providing downloadable games is also a significant issue. Nintendo would have to implement the infrastructure, which in itself would be terribly expensive if done properly. There are also people with subpar internet connections, whether in terms of speed or limit. I still buy physical copies of Steam games so I don't have to download as much.

Iwata mentioned something about a future DS handheld being equipped with a free 3G connectivity a little while before the DSIXL (which has no 3G connectivity) was released: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/nintendo-considering-3g-ds-handheld-646482 As I said earlier; machines pre-loaded with 3GS games could be put in stores allowing customers to download off of them.

tehuber1337 · #86Additionally, if a download-only system was implemented without regard to piracy, which is a far bigger issue than resale, the end result would be net financial loss.

Nintendo could still put measures in place to stop piracy, especially if the DS3D has 3G connectivity that alows Nintendo to uninstall games remotely (obviously, I can't say whether they will for sure; but it would be possible). People are always going to find ways around piracy-protection; putting measures in place that make piracy as unappealing as possible is the way to fight it. If faced with constantly having to update their methods of piracy (something anyone whom owns a flashcard will be familiar with) to the point that it becomes a nuisance, people may choose to buy games simply because it's easier.A lot of people whom pirate games can afford them; they pirate because free is cheaper than retail and because it's easy. If it becomes more difficult to pirate; people may re-evaluate whether free games are worth the hassle.

tehuber1337 · #86Perhaps you missed the part where I said that the discussion was based on the assertion that the 3DS would be download-only. Or are you distinguishing between "this" and "that" discussion? I still don't see what difference it makes, as we're still speaking hypothetically anyway.

I was under the impression that you were saying that because you weren't aware that the DS3D will be backwards compatible the fact that it has been announced to be so is irrelevant to this discussion. If I got the wrong end of the stick; then I apologise.

tehuber1337 · #86Yes, they've already got DSiWare. However, the iPod app market is extraordinarily different to the Nintendo Shop or whatever it's called; not only does it allow for user-made applications, but it caters to people who want a highly customisable all-in-one device to perform simple, convenient tasks.

True, one of the many ways that the PSP stumbled was the way it tried to be a general media device rather than a gaming device.

tehuber1337 · #86The fact that many apps are free and the others can be purchased with money rather than otherwise non-redeemable points is another bonus.

I've never seen the problem in purchasing points that can only be used within a particular service; it's not like people wouldn't know that they would be limited to buying DS3D applications/games. It's just like buying iTunes vouchers or whatever. I'm not bothered either way.

tehuber1337 · #86The DSi, as a dedicated gaming platform (as its other features are so lackluster as to not warrant mention), simply cannot compare to the potential for ubiquity that the iPod family possesses.

True. Perhaps with the 3D, Nintendo can blur the dividing line.

Isn't the PSP2 the PSP Go?And I replied that time because I wanted to add something on, and got that "Warning - someone already posted blablabla"

markswan · #88Are you saying that developers not having to rely on publishers for packaging would cause them (the publishers) to become partially redundant? They wouldn't need to foot the bill for packaging, assembly and shipping, but developers would still need money for marketing, dev kits etc (and possibly for all, or part, of the development cycle). Not having to pay for packaging etc may actually benefit the publisher. It would certainly benefit independent developers and in-house studios.

Being put out of a job is always a bad thing. More to do, more to get paid for.

markswan · #88Valve's Steam has done very well with downloadable games, I don't see why Nintendo couldn't be just as successful. Third party developers would have the choice of adapting or losing out on profits that could be made. It's risk versus reward.

Do you remember when Half-life 2 was first released, and the multitudes decried the forced move to Steam? IIRC even Vivaldi, the publisher of the first game, sued Valve for violation of distribution rights.However, HL2 (and other big Steam-only games) provide a massive incentive for users to join Steam. It has the well-established user base that developers want, and the well-established developer base that the users want. Steam is also highly accessible as an all-purpose, account-based and now multi-platform content-delivery system.As you can see, the circumstances behind Steam and its success are entirely different to those here.

markswan · #88Iwata mentioned something about a future DS handheld being equipped with a free 3G connectivity a little while before the DSIXL (which has no 3G connectivity) was released: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/nintendo-considering-3g-ds-handheld-646482 As I said earlier; machines pre-loaded with 3GS games could be put in stores allowing customers to download off of them.

3G has less global coverage than internet does, not to mention its speed limitations.

markswan · #88Nintendo could still put measures in place to stop piracy, especially if the DS3D has 3G connectivity that alows Nintendo to uninstall games remotely (obviously, I can't say whether they will for sure; but it would be possible). People are always going to find ways around piracy-protection; putting measures in place that make piracy as unappealing as possible is the way to fight it. If faced with constantly having to update their methods of piracy (something anyone whom owns a flashcard will be familiar with) to the point that it becomes a nuisance, people may choose to buy games simply because it's easier.A lot of people whom pirate games can afford them; they pirate because free is cheaper than retail and because it's easy. If it becomes more difficult to pirate; people may re-evaluate whether free games are worth the hassle.

I agree that providing an appealing alternative is the best way to combat piracy, but that'd require a working system. As I've been trying to say, that's a pretty difficult thing to do. Subscription-based video-streaming sites have a (very) small degree of success in this, for example, but are still far too limited to be truly effective. As far as I'm concerned, it's better to have no system than a half-assed one.Remotely uninstalling games is a pretty slippery slope, by the way. I don't think anyone would be very pleased with the prospect even existing.

markswan · #88I've never seen the problem in purchasing points that can only be used within a particular service; it's not like people wouldn't know that they would be limited to buying DS3D applications/games. It's just like buying iTunes vouchers or whatever. I'm not bothered either way.

I've always preferred receiving actual money as a gift to vouchers. It's immeasurably more versatile. I tell people that giving gifts should have the same emphasis on the end result, but no, "it's the thought that counts". A saying like that just goes to show the gift-giver only wants their gift to be appreciated for their own sake. Someone who truly wants the recipient to get the best they can (after all, who understands one more than oneself?) would provide the gift with the most potential, without regard for how much they seem to care...but I digress.

markswan · #88True. Perhaps with the 3D, Nintendo can blur the dividing line.

Cynic that I am, I reckon the 3DS is more likely to be received as "gimmicky", in the same way as the DS was. Problem is, I can't see 3D as becoming a crucial feature of a portable console, so it may just remain a gimmick.Prove me wrong, Nintendo, prove me wrong. I'll be looking forward to it.

Replying to #90

I suppose it would be a bad thing for the people whom are currently employed to assemble DS games and stuff, but that's just business. It would be unfortunate that they would lose their jobs due to becoming unnecessary for a new distribution model, but that's the nature of general industry; it always has been, it's just part of being as profitable as possible. A business needs to care the most about it's bottom line; it isn't going to pay for employees that aren't needed.

Replying to #90

With the exception of being multi-platform (unless games could be transferred to Wii or a future home console), Nintendo could achieve all of those things. When Steam was first launched it was a wild-card from a company with little backing. It took years for it to become popular with big-name developers, and may have failed miserably if it weren't for HL:2.
Nintendo is a far more established, recognisable and reputable company (in the eyes of both consumers and developers) than Valve is even now. Valve had one big game that kick-started its service, Nintendo has a large number of "big-name" I.Ps plus third-party devs that are also established and well known that will almost definitely wish to make games for Nintendo's new money machine. The fact that services like steam already exist may also give Nintendo another edge that Valve didn't have; familiarity, a concept that isn't alien (to consumers or developers/publishers).

Replying to #90

True. Some of the problems with a lack of 3G coverage could be solved with offering some of the services that would be available with a 3G connection available over a Wi-Fi connection, or offering 3G connections to Nintendo services at game stores.

Replying to #90

Difficult maybe, but not impossible.

Replying to #90

Consumers wouldn't be very pleased (I know that I wouldn't; I'm not endorsing it, just saying that it would be a good idea from Nintendo's point of view), but being able to remotely disable/delete pirated content (as well as offer consequences to those that pirate) would be something that developers would be very happy about.

Replying to #90

But if it's you that has bought the voucher, then surely you would have already decided that you're going to purchase 3DS games?

Replying to #90

The DS is one of the most successful consoles in history (I can't remember whether it's been declared the most successful yet); so being perceived the same way as its predecessor isn't likely to do the 3DS/whatever-it-will-be-called (I don't know why I've been calling it the "DS3D" in my previous posts : \ ) any harm (judging by past events).

Replying to #90

We'll soon see :)

Stanley Richards · #89Isn't the PSP2 the PSP Go?

No, that's not a new generation of PSP; just a new model in the current generation. It's an understandable mistake to make though.

Stanley Richards · #89And I replied that time because I wanted to add something on, and got that "Warning - someone already posted blablabla"

I wasn't making fun of you, just making fun generally ;)

Replying to #91

This, folks, is the problem with capitalism =/. Unfortunately one cannot evaluate the impact joblessness may have on redundant workers and how it weighs up against the potential profits of a new business model.

Replying to #91

This is why I was considering that maybe the best thing Nintendo could do would be to actually use Steam.

Replying to #91

Nintendo and Valve cater to different markets. Personally, HL2 was more than enough reason for me to join Steam, but Nintendo's got nothing I'd bother registering for. I don't think casual gamers would care enough to sign up, either.Besides, Nintendo has been far more traditional in its business approach than Valve, which actively involves the community (see Steam forums, everything TF2, the recent Portal giveaway, etc). As I said earlier, it's better to have no system than a half-assed one, and I have my doubts that Nintendo would be willing to fully implement such a drastic change. Valve, on the other hand, didn't have much to lose.As I said, the circumstances are too different, so the comparison isn't very good.

Replying to #91

3G or decent internet - in my experience, it's never one or the other, it's neither or both.Oh, and using 3G kiosks for purchases and such puts users at risk of data interception.

Replying to #91

I suppose what's considered a "working, appealing alternative" is subjective, then.

Replying to #91

Business exists to suit the needs of customers. Unhappy customers, unhappy business.

Replying to #91

Okay, let's continue this hypothetical situation and say that I purchase a voucher worth 2000 points and purchase 3DS games totalling 1900 points. What am I to do if I cannot buy anything with the remaining 100 points? It's wasted until I purchase more points for the leftovers to be enough. Money, however, is simply more useful. It's unfair to consumers to force them to purchase a money equivalent.

Replying to #91

Well, as I said, the problem is that I don't foresee 3D being a staple of portable gaming in the same manner that the DS's touch screen has. 3D assists in graphical immersion, but as handheld consoles are meant to be taken outside of one's home...well, I'm sure you can see the issue there.

So the PSP2 is different from the PSP GO?

Replying to #93

The PSP2 hasn't been officially announced yet (but journalists are speculating that it will be based on some private comments apparently made by some developers), but yes; it would have to be far different to the Go to be recognised as a new generation.
http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010/02/23/psp2-to-take-e3-on-the-go/
http://kotaku.com/5537778/rumor-psp2-making-e3-appearanceThe pictures of the "PSP2" in those articles are just mock ups, if the device exists, there are no official pictures of it that have been released yet.

Awful lot of argument for such an amazing topic. Honestly, I couldn't give a damn whether or not this thing is hackable. I know that statement is basically the antithesis of this whole post but really people, we're going to have a 3d handheld game system. Am I the only who's mind is almost completely blown across the room ever time I mutter that fact to myself? I mean, remember the Cosmos? It was supposed to be the first handheld game system with 3d graphics via holograms, but it failed and never released. The dream is being recreated here now in the year 2010 by the best handheld console developers on the entire planet. Continue with the conversation of what kind of media the games will be played on and will we be able to get them for free but I feel I have to ask, wouldn't you just buy the games if hacking was out of the question? I'd really like to know. Thanks in advance.

Replying to #95

We're not arguing; we're having a discussion.

Replying to #95

I just jizzed in my panties.

Replying to #95

No.

Replying to #95

If they're good games, then yes for me. Also, people whom download ROMs sometimes buy the game if they like the ROM. Although many probably don't, more often than not; I don't.

awesmazing · #95Continue with the conversation of what kind of media the games will be played on and will we be able to get them for free but I feel I have to ask, wouldn't you just buy the games if hacking was out of the question? I'd really like to know. Thanks in advance.

If hacking was out of the question then yes I would buy some games. I usually buy games that I really like anyway even if they are hackable just because I feel obligated to support my favorite games and series. If everyone just downloaded the ROMS then companies would not be able to make more games. Now if it was a game that I would normally pass up because I do not want to pay for it then I would just download the ROM since I would not even buy it in the first place.

IIRC, there will be no PSP2 at E3 this year, but a new PSP hardware revision. (Like how there's PSP-1000/2000/3000)

Hm..I remember starting a topic about this. But it's an old topic, so it shouldn't be bumped...

awesmazing · #95Awful lot of argument for such an amazing topic. Honestly, I couldn't give a damn whether or not this thing is hackable.

I myself really couldn't expect less from a system we just heard of...

johnxThat's right.
It's probably going to be hard just to even dump a rom.
I'm sure Nintendo will do their best to stop Piracy.
Probably go fully insane to stop it.

the 3ds cards have a capacity of i think 2gb. you can check the speculation of 3ds at e3.nintendo.com