Hitler Question

Hmm.Hitler at the end of the day was just a guy like us.Trying to confirm our relationship with the world.

Replying to #81

I feel weird now :P
It's true what you have put. Although, I already have confirmed my place though. >_<

snebbersNo no, we're off topic slightly, that's all :P

Oh, good.
I don't think we are though.
Isn't the topic about the Holocaust?

But because there is evidence, it doesn't mean it is neccessarily true though.

Not 100%.
But it is my opinion that the side with the evidence should be the side regarded as most probable to be true.
And by that i mean until the Holocaust Deniers can bring up any credible argument, i will dismiss them in the same manner that i dismiss creationists and flat-earthers.

Well I never said that the evidence was false, so I didn't see any reason to state why it was false.

You said this:

All those entries and little pieces of information, they could (I'm not saying that they are) be false, but then they could also be true..

So, if you could give me an argument as to why they could be false, maybe i would take that hypothesis into consideration.As of yet, i have no reason to believe they are.

That's true enough in itself, I mean to use the cube in the analogy of, while it is still a cube (The holocaust being the cube in this scenario). Everyone is looking at it from a different side, while it is ultimately the same topic, not everyone see's it the same way as other people. The basis is that a cube has six sides, not the basis of the fact that it exists or not.

Yes, but this argument only has 2 sides.
Either it happened or not.
At least i don't see any other side to it except for these two.
Maybe you could provide some other scenarios?

I don't think you're angry at all ^_^
I understand exactly what you mean and I can see your side of the debate, and to be honest I am having a great deal of entertainment too. :P

Cool.
Thanks for being open minded and open to debate!

allkratos · #81Hmm.Hitler at the end of the day was just a guy like us.Trying to confirm our relationship with the world.

Well, except for the fact that he hated minorities, and had a superiority complex, and wanted to impose his own ideology on the world...
As you said, just your regular Joe thinking about what he should have for dinner tonight.

Replying to #83

Yes that is true, but we're back on topic now :P
Earlier we were talking about perspective and life in general. :)

Replying to #83

So even though that Evolution is still a theory and might not in actual fact be true, you're more likely to say that it is right, even though it is not fully proven, just like the fact there is no proof that god exists, yet there are scriptures which can also be deemed of evidence of his works.The evidence is fighting for each theory, so both are just as likely or unlikely.

Replying to #83

Well for instance, the American view on hitler and his reign was biased, just like that of the British and so history may have been edited into the favour of showing hitler to be a criminal and a global threat of his time, I myself cannot confirm this as I have not studied History, but it is a mere possiblity.The Jewish view is also biased, the don't take into account that countless other people died during the holocaust, they see themself as the true victim of it. Down to chance they could have been the one who were the largest group of a similar minority. Blacks and disabled people were also slaughtered, but nobody really picks up on that fact.It's all very well reading about something and acknowledging it as evidence and information on the subject, but what if, and I repeat what if that's not correct? It could be just heresay, why do we just believe what is written. It is history after all, we do not know specifically what happened, so how can we justify the unknown?

Replying to #83

There are tree's from each side, each spouts down into smaller details that make up the huge details...The huge details are all similarily the same, while all the little details make these huge details, we don't know for instance who was actually responsible for the the holocaust.It could have been hitler, it could have been stalin, or one of his other generals, or maybe it was actually the SS of their own accord, or maybe it was the general Nazi party just thinking they were following orders.. Then we would have to see who created the labour camps and who gave the authority of the creation of this.Each of these small perspectives can add up to an unlimited number of perspectives, they are all variables within the same topic. And may ultimately affect the persons final opinion or belief.

Replying to #83

You're welcome ^_^I just have the point that History has happened, why say it is right or wrong, when we can never really know.

Has anyone read the Albert Speer autobiography? It's a very interesting insight into how Hitler ran Germany. Hitler was a genius at manipulating a society and fixing economy, he was an idealistic fool at the same time and a bit of a poor judge of character and made some poor military judgements. He was definitely responsible for the holocaust, but whether or not he directly ordered them is unknown. How bad the holocaust actually was is not known, only that it was terrible. History is written by the victors. It's entirely possible that the British or Americans had similar camps but subsequently erased all evidence of them. (I'm not saying they did, only that such a thing is possible).As to the question that was raised earlier that if I could go back in time to 193x and kill Hitler; my answer is "definitely not!" for the following reason:
If Hitler had never risen to power and rebuilt Germany's military power, Britain and France would probably let their militaries decline as there would have been little need for them (much like they are doing now). Then when Russia had invaded Europe, they would have swept through easily with little problem and the world would be a very different place now, perhaps the Stalinist purges would have been repeated to a much larger extent (indeed such a thing seems likely to me). In my mind, Hitler was the lesser of two evils, even if he did cause so much pain and suffering. To be honest, I believe Joseph Goebbels was worse than Hitler.

snebbers · #84So even though that Evolution is still a theory and might not in actual fact be true, you're more likely to say that it is right, even though

I don't think you finished your train of thought there.
But yeah, i think evolution is true.There is a very scant possibility that i am actually a blob alone in the Universe, and this is actually a dream.But apart from these types of possibilities, evolution is proven through evidence.

snebbers · #84Well for instance, the American view on hitler and his reign was biased, just like that of the British and so history may have been edited into the favour of showing hitler to be a criminal and a global threat of his time, I myself cannot confirm this as I have not studied History, but it is a mere possiblity.

There is also a possibility that Hitler had wings.
I don't think possibilities should be considered unless there is evidence to support them.

snebbers · #84The Jewish view is also biased, the don't take into account that countless other people died during the holocaust, they see themself as the true victim of it. Down to chance they could have been the one who were the largest group of a similar minority. Blacks and disabled people were also slaughtered, but nobody really picks up on that fact.

I think everyone acknowledges that fact.
The Jews are usually the main topic because the numbers of dead Jews far exceed the numbers of the other groups.

snebbers · #84It's all very well reading about something and acknowledging it as evidence and information on the subject, but what if, and I repeat what if that's not correct? It could be just heresay, why do we just believe what is written. It is history after all, we do not know specifically what happened, so how can we justify the unknown?

Because we don't have just hearsay.We have hard evidence such as written documents, piles of corpses, and a horde of other stuff that i have previously mentioned, and that is referenced to in the link i have provided.

snebbers · #84There are tree's from each side, each spouts down into smaller details that make up the huge details...

What trees are there on the denialist's side?

snebbers · #84The huge details are all similarily the same, while all the little details make these huge details, we don't know for instance who was actually responsible for the the holocaust.

It was the Nazi regime.
No other group can be blamed for this.

snebbers · #84It could have been hitler, it could have been stalin,

No, it could not have been Stalin.
Why Stalin?

snebbers · #84or one of his other generals, or maybe it was actually the SS of their own accord, or maybe it was the general Nazi party just thinking they were following orders.. Then we would have to see who created the labour camps and who gave the authority of the creation of this.

Hitler
(In case it's not noticeable, that is a link showing why it was Hitler)

snebbers · #84Each of these small perspectives can add up to an unlimited number of perspectives, they are all variables within the same topic. And may ultimately affect the persons final opinion or belief.

To me it still seems to end in two options:
Either accept the evidence, or dismiss it.

snebbers · #84You're welcome ^_^

No problem!
I actually have to go now.
My wife is coming home, and i got stuff to do.
I'll be back later.Maybe we can continue this discussion.
;)

snebbers · #84I just have the point that History has happened, why say it is right or wrong, when we can never really know.

because it is through History that we learn how to not repeat the same mistakes.
If the holocaust is excused or ignored, it will soon be forgotten, and the chance that something of the sort will happen again will be greater.

I already said I have not studied history.. I do not look at it from a historical standpoint. :)I don't know the people and I don't know the details, but I can't arrive at a decision, so I leave it as it is. Sometimes unanswered questions are best left unanswered.At the end of the day, the holocaust either happened or it didn't happen, and we will never know who is responisible.We can debate about this all year, but in the end we will get to the point where we are repeating ourselves. :PYou have an opinion on this and I... I don't really have an opinion, I leave it at the question, Because I know that I'm not the one who says what is right and wrong.. But as you said you are a blob, and I am just another blob in this universe.We're equal even though we think differently, we're all entitled to what we think. So I'm not going to debate here anymore. :P I just wanted to raise the point, that nobody may be right, and nobody may be wrong.But Sure thing, take care and good night :)
Sleep well..

snebbers · #84So even though that Evolution is still a theory and might not in actual fact be true, you're more likely to say that it is right, even though it is not fully proven, just like the fact there is no proof that god exists, yet there are scriptures which can also be deemed of evidence of his works.

sorry to go off topic here but i have to say it again!!!!there is a difference between "A THEORY" and "THE THEORY OF"all scientific study that is accepted as a legitimate field of study is preceded by "THE THEORY OF"
evolution is not arguable, it is proven beyond doubt, it is not a case of opinion it is plain old fact and if you choose to believe otherwise does not mean it's not real it means you don't understand things to well.and for arguments sake i'd have to say there is no proof or evidence of god what so ever and the bible does not count as a viable source of evidence at all and that's again not opinion, there is no way it can even be thought of as evidence as most if not all of it is or can be debunked, it does not match even the history of anything and seeing as most of it is third party "witness" accounts written hundreds of years after the events how is it credible at all?.which leads me back on topic.it seems as though evidence is your issue, do you know what evidence is and what do you deem to be evidential enough to be true?you can't deny the holocaust or even sit on the fence of saying it might or might not be, you either look at the overwhelming evidence or you listen to the stupid things that the deniers say and go dance with the Nazis.

What's this? Are you becoming infuriated just because I have an opinion that you don't agree with? I'm not sorry that I am an individual :PI don't have to say something is one or the other, I don't have to agree or disagree with anything, I accept other peoples opinions, I don't call them wrong, neither do I call them right. Afterall who are we to say what is wrong and right?At the end of the day I don't really mind if there is evidence, if it is not 100% proven, then there is the possibility that it is not true. And thus I will not believe it.Show me proof that I was once an ape.We're going off topic now.

Since were going off topic a tad, Why did Hitler hate Jews and the likes?

Replying to #90

They were seen as a minority to him, Something that his 'perfect race' didn't need included, so apparently he saw to exterminating them. That's what history pretty much sums up. :/

snebbers · #89What's this? Are you becoming infuriated just because I have an opinion that you don't agree with? I'm not sorry that I am an individual :PI don't have to say something is one or the other, I don't have to agree or disagree with anything, I accept other peoples opinions, I don't call them wrong, neither do I call them right. Afterall who are we to say what is wrong and right?At the end of the day I don't really mind if there is evidence, if it is not 100% proven, then there is the possibility that it is not true. And thus I will not believe it.Show me proof that I was once an ape.We're going off topic now.

i'm not infuriated that you have an opposing opinion, my issue is the 100% thing.nothing ever has or will be 100% in evidential terms so does that mean you don't believe in anything what so ever.
and i could show you but you'd dismiss anything i would show you i'm sure and there is stacks of evidence to support it in many fields of study and technically i can't show you that you were once an ape because you are still classed as an ape.ok so your saying that if on one side there was 99% and the other 1%, you'd not want to believe in the stronger side because of that 1%?

That's the nail on the head. Even though the chances are slim, it is still a chance, correct?

snebbers · #91They were seen as a minority to him, Something that his 'perfect race' didn't need included, so apparently he saw to exterminating them. That's what history pretty much sums up. :/

Thats a load of tripe.If that was the case,why didnt he go after Eskimos or some Amazonian Tribe.I cannot see how he was a "great leader"-he was a complete lunatic.

Replying to #94

He brought Germany out of the worst depression it had ever experienced. Modern politicians should at least learn from how he achieved that.

I believe it's generally accepted that Hitler's aggression towards the Jewish race stemmed from his Mother's painful death from cancer. She was treated by a Jewish doctor who used very expensive drugs/treatment on her. Hitler was very attached to his mother and was just 18 when she died.

snebbers · #87We can debate about this all year, but in the end we will get to the point where we are repeating ourselves. :P

I agree with this.
Anyway, it provided me with entertainment for the afternoon, so thanks for that.
Hope we get more topics to discuss!

equitypeteynothing ever has or will be 100% in evidential terms so does that mean you don't believe in anything what so ever.(...)
ok so your saying that if on one side there was 99% and the other 1%, you'd not want to believe in the stronger side because of that 1%?

Yeah, that's what i think he is saying.

theunderling · #94Thats a load of tripe.If that was the case,why didnt he go after Eskimos or some Amazonian Tribe.

Because there weren't that many Eskimos and Amazonians living in Germany at the time.
If there were, he would also go after those "inferior" races.

Replying to #96

That might very well be true, but at the time of Hitler just about everyone hated the Jews.
They were after all, the "Christ Killers".

Loonylion · #95He brought Germany out of the worst depression it had ever experienced. Modern politicians should at least learn from how he achieved that.

Thats a fair point Loony-but not the whole episode.He was bound to lower unemployment-who else was going to make steel,build tanks/u-boats/make bombs.Now where did he get the money from to pay for all this.Dont be surprised if he "borrowed" from Jewish merchants and found a quick way to pay them off-permanently.Im aware he took over the running of Germany in a recession-but at the end he left it in a much worse state surely

Oteupaiecona · #97but at the time of Hitler just about everyone hated the Jews.
They were after all, the "Christ Killers".

I dont think that statement is true. Christ was killed more than a millenia and a half before hitler was born.

Replying to #98

He built roads and infrastructure to create jobs, and it was incredibly successful. he then used the improved economy to finance his war machine.

Replying to #99

True.
However hatred for Jews never went away in all that time.The Holocaust was in part a cumulation of all the hatred throughout the years.
People believed jews stole christian babies to drink their blood., for example.
The accusation that Jews were the Christ-Killers was not officially repudiated by the Church until 1962.
Anti-Semitic Christianity was the norm rather then the exception prior to the Holocaust.
The Holocaust was an eye opener to people's own prejudices, not just the atrocities of one mad man.